As we started 2020, we had a grand plan to travel to Japan, Europe, the USA and come back to South East Asia. Unfortunately, a global pandemic wasn’t something anybody saw coming and we had to throw this plan out the window overnight. The problem is that we already had spent seven thousand dollars ($7,300 to be exact) & more than 100,000 airline points in bookings. We had no idea whether or not we would be able to recover this money.
As we’ve been recently going through our finances to close our detailed spending for 2020, we were pleased to see that we were eventually refunded all of our canceled bookings and then some – we also learned a lot through this time-consuming experience.
In this article, we are going to share with you a lot of details about what bookings we made, how we paid, how much we got back, how long it took for us to get our money back, which strategies we used to get our money back and what we learned for the future.
Are you ready to dig in?
Recap on our initial plans for 2020
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Let’s start by saying that we were really excited to start this new decade and our plan reflected that as by January 2020, we had already our travel plans up to September 2020 – yes, we were planning ahead! We had scored great deals in places located in Asia (Japan), Europe (Italy, Poland, France), North America (USA) and were considering booking fall of 2020 back in SouthEast Asia. If everything went according to plan, here are some of the places we were supposed to slow travel to:
Unfortunately, as the COVID19 pandemic become global we had to scrap anything we had plan post March and our 2020 ended looking more like this:
Maybe not as exciting but luckily sheltering ourselves in Taiwan (and becoming Taiwanese residents thanks to the Taiwan Gold Card), we made the best of a difficult situation and are grateful that our daily lives haven’t been affected much by this pandemic in 2020 and we continue to freely roam around the wonderful island of Taiwan!
Accommodations
As always, we book 95% of our accommodations via Airbnbs as they make us feel at home in every place we visit. Plus we get to negotiate some great deals (check our ultimate guide to Airbnb to know how we save up to 50% on our stay).
Here are all the places we already booked by January 2020 on AirBnB:
Japan
Our plan was to spend one month with my parents to let them discover Japan, a country they have never been to. We made the following bookings on AirBnB:
Stay #1
- Dates: 3/26/2020 – 4/2/2020
- Location: Osaka
- Accommodation type: AirBnB Listing link
- Total paid: $280.18
- Cancellation Policy: Strict (meaning you get a 50% refund of the nightly rate, and the cleaning fee, but not the service fee)
- How we paid: 💳 Credit Card
- How much was refunded: $280.18
Stay #2
- Dates: 4/2/2020 – 4/11/2020
- Location: Kyoto
- Accommodation type: AirBnB Listing link
- Total paid: $979.28
- Cancellation Policy: Strict (meaning you get a 50% refund of the nightly rate, and the cleaning fee, but not the service fee)
- How we paid: 💳 Credit Card
- How much was refunded: $979.28
Stay #3
- Dates: 4/11/2020 – 4/22/2020
- Location: Tokyo
- Accommodation type: AirBnB Listing link
- Total paid: $1148.70
Cancellation Policy: Strict (meaning you get a 50% refund of the nightly rate, and the cleaning fee, but not the service fee) - How we paid: 💳 Credit Card
- How much was refunded: $1148.70
Action taken: We decided to cancel our trip to Japan about a week before COVID became a global pandemic (as announced by the WHO on 3/11/2020). We were able to do so since Hong Kong (our connection from Bali) was shutting down all its flights towards Japan in March. To get a full refund from Airbnb, we had to provide a copy of our flight ticket with an explanation for the cancellation. We think AirBnb’s customer service during the whole pandemic was exceptional and gave us further confidence to continue using their platform during uncertain times.
Italy
- Dates: 6/4/2020 – 7/2/2020
- Location: Florence
- Accommodation type: AirBnB Listing link
- Total paid: $789.96
- Cancellation Policy: Long Term (meaning you lose the first 30 days of a 4+ weeks booking)
- How we paid: 💳 Credit Card
- How much was refunded: $789.96
Action taken: Since Airbnb promised full refunds to guests who had booked rentals on or before March 14, 2020, on 3/16/2020 we canceled the trip under this cancelation policy and received the full refund on the same day.
Poland
- Dates: 7/7/2020 – 8/4/2020
- Location: Krakow
- Accommodation type: AirBnB Listing link
- Total paid: $815.85
- Cancellation policy: Long Term (meaning you lose the first 30 days of a 4+ weeks booking)
- How we paid: 💳 Credit Card
- How much was refunded: $815.85
Action taken: The initial Airbnb refund policy was conservative regarding COVID19 and only allowed cancellations for bookings up to June 2020 (little did we know about how long the pandemic would continue!). Around June 2020, they extended this to the summer, so we could then request a full refund for this stay. This is what we did on June 14th and got a full refund.
Greece
- Dates: 8/29/2020 – 9/1/2020
- Location: Paleokastritsa
- Accommodation type: AirBnB Listing link
- Total paid: $117.60
- Cancellation Policy: Flexible (meaning you get a free cancellation until 14 days before check-in)
- How we paid: 💳 Credit Card
- How much was refunded: $103.05 + $14.55
Action taken: This was a tricky one as it turns out that Airbnb only allows you to refund up to 3 service fees over a 12 months period, something we had no idea about as we never had to cancel that many Airbnb bookings in such a short period of time before. I did not immediately notice that we did not get the full refund until we did our 2020 expense review. Once I realized the gap, I got in touch with their customer support and was able to get a one time exception.
“Guests won’t get a refund of the Airbnb service fee if they’ve received 3 service fee refunds in the last 12 months or if the canceled reservation overlaps with an existing reservation.”
Airbnb – How cancellations work for stays
Recap
Airbnb has been really good at dealing with the pandemic. For us, we managed to get all of our money back with just a single click without having to talk to anyone. And while we did not know about some limitations of the service fee refund, we still managed to get it refunded after explaining our situation to their online support.
In total, we prepaid $4,131.57 in Airbnb stays with our credit card and got the full amount back and did not need to get a credit or voucher with some time sensitivity to it. As an unexpected extra, we managed to get credit card rewards points in this process because the refund was done after we received the bonuses. I actually called the credit card company about that and it seems they don’t bother canceling sign-up bonuses in such situations.
Flights
Our experience with our flights hasn’t been as straightforward, so we are going to break it down per location.
Japan – Tickets for our parents
We booked tickets for my parents to join us in Japan that we had to cancel.
- Date: 4/1/2020
- What did we get: two return ticket flying on Air France, from Paris (CDG) to Osaka (ITM)
- How did we book: via AirFrance.fr
- How we paid: 💳 Credit Card
- Total paid: $1,244.69
- How much was refunded: $1,327.59
- Loss or Profit: +$82.90 (due to currency conversion as we booked the ticket in EUR currency)
- Refund date: 12/7/2020
Action taken: Initially, the company decided to issue us a voucher valid for just a year that we definitely did not want. So we tried a couple of strategies to get our money back:
- First, we called the airline company to refuse the voucher, which did not go anywhere as we could not reach the company at all as they were overwhelmed by phone call volumes.
- Second, we asked American Express to dispute the two charges on our credit card (one for each parent) as we could not reach the airline company to request a refund. Amex credited immediately the chargeback but conducted their investigation. For some reason one of the charges got refunded while the other did not as Amex heard back from Air France about one of the two requests they sent them telling them about the fact that we would receive credit vouchers
- While we were happy to get half of our money back this way, as we got closer to our voucher expiration date, the company faced increasing pressure from customers to ask for their money back and decided to issue full credit back upon request. We submitted credit for both tickets and got a refund for the ticket that American Express still charged us. Since the refund was issued in EUR and the USD lost value after the pandemic, we ended up making a ~7% profit!
Japan – Our tickets
To get to Japan in April 2020, we booked two separate flight tickets:
Ticket #1
- Date: 3/26/2020
- What did we get: 2 one-way ticket flying on Cathay Pacific, from Bali (DPS) to Hong Kong (HKG)
- How did we book: via AsiaMiles.com
- How we paid: 💳 Credit Card + ✈️ Miles
- Total paid: $62.42 + 20,000 Asia Miles points
- How much was refunded: $62.70 + 20,000 Asia Miles points (valid for 18 months)
- Loss or Profit: +$0.28 (due to currency conversion as we booked the ticket in MYR currency)
- You have to love how much money a company will charge to handle any kind of request for their customers!: 5/1/2020
Ticket #2
- Date: 3/27/2020
- What did we get: 2 one-way tickets on Peach Aviation, from Hong Kong (HKG) to Osaka (ITM).
- How did we book: via Gotogate.com
- Total paid: $376.90
- How we paid: 💳 Credit Card
- How much was refunded: $319.25
- Loss or Profit: -$57.65 (or 300 MYR)
- Refund date: 4/24/2020
Actions taken:
- For Ticket #1, we learned that Hong Kong was closing its border and expected the airline to cancel the ticket, which they did. Once that cancellation was effective, we called Asia Miles and were able to get all of our money back. We even got a few cents more due to the conversion rate between USD and MYR increased in our favor by the time we received the refund in USD
- For Ticket #2, we learned that Japan was closing its border to foreigners and expected the airline to cancel the ticket, which they did. Once this became official though, we had to call GoToGate customer support to request a full refund as the airline wasn’t handling requests for tickets purchased through 3rd party websites. Unfortunately for us, this meant we had to give GoToGate 300 MYR (or 57.65 USD) to let them “handle” our refund request.
“We will send a refund application to the airline for your booking XXXXXX. If the request is granted, we will refund your flight ticket. Our handling fee is 300 MYR per person – this amount will be taken from your refund.”
You have to love how much money a company will charge to handle any kind of request for their customers!
Visa run
Once our plans to Japan were canceled (and this was done before COVID19 became a global pandemic), we were thinking of extending our stay in Bali by another month by booking another wonderful villa in Ubud. To do so, we had to do a visa run as our visa on arrival only allowed us to stay 30 days in the country. The plan for our run was to spend one night in Kuala Lumpur then re-enter Bali the next day to get another free 30 days visa. While we had never done a visa run before, this was a pretty common practice so we weren’t too worried about it.
Again we booked two separate flight tickets:
Ticket #1
- Date: 3/26/2020
- What did we get: 2 one-way tickets flying on Air Asia, from Bali (DPS) to Kuala Lumpur (KUL)
- How did we book: via AirAsia.com
- How we paid: 💳 Credit Card
- Total paid: $132.90
- How much was refunded: $132.90 (on paper as we are still waiting for the money to be wired)
- Loss or Profit: Technically we should receive a full refund for this flight
- Refund date: still pending as of Jan 2021
Ticket #2
- Date: 3/27/2020
- What did we get: 2 one-way tickets flying on Malindo Air, from Kuala Lumpur (KUL) to Bali (DPS)
- How did we book: via CheapOair
- How we paid: 💳 Credit Card
- Total paid: $62.07
- How much was refunded: $62.07 (on 8/14/2020)
- Loss or Profit: We got a full refund!
- Refund date: 8/14/2020
Actions taken:
- For Ticket #1, we are still working with AirAsia to get our money back. After a few back and forths that did not go anywhere, we had to escalate to management to request a full refund. As of 9/5/2020 we received an email telling us that our refund is getting processed but we are still waiting for it. Hopefully it will land on our credit card soon.
“Dear Guest,
Love getting these emails, but as of this writing 20 weeks have passed and we have still not received any refund.
Thank you very much for your patience, we are pleased to share that your refund request is approved! Due to the overwhelming number of requests received, the refund will take between 12 to 16 weeks to process. Once completed, you will be notified via email accordingly. “
- For Ticket #2, we called CheapOair to cancel our booking and had to wait patiently until the summer to finally receive our refund. Easy!
Quarantine in Taipei
When we decided to go to Taipei when the pandemic became real, we had to book a flight leaving Taiwan to board the plane. Since we did not have such a booking, we had to make one on the spot at the airport. We knew that some companies allowed 24 hours cancellation so we used that policy to book a ticket that we had no plans to use.
- Date: 5/31/2020
- What did we get: 2 one-way tickets flying on United Airlines, from Taipei (TPE) to San Francisco (SFO)
- How did we book: via United.com
- How we paid: 💳 Credit Card
- Total paid: $1,143.70
- How much was refunded: $1,143.70
- Loss or Profit: We got our money back under the 24 hours free cancellation policy of United.com
- Refund date: 3/20/2020
Action taken: As soon as we landed in Taipei we cancelled this flight and get a full refund.
California
We booked a flight from Taipei To San Francisco to visit Mrs. NN family before returning to Europe that we also had to cancel.
- Date: 4/22/2020
- What did we get: two one-way tickets flying on Delta Airlines, from Tokyo (HND) to San Francisco (SFO)
- How did we book: via Delta.com
- How we paid: 💳 Credit Card + ✈️ Miles
- Total paid: $110.80 + 32,000 Delta Skymiles
- How much was refunded: $115.38
- Loss or Profit: +$4.58 (due to currency conversion as we booked the ticket in JPY currency)
- Refund date: 3/14/2020
Action taken: Simply calling Delta Airlines to request the refund as full refund where issued on such flights under their COVID19 refund policy. Easy peasy!
Europe
After enjoying some quality time with family we were planning to head back to Europe. Again, we used our points to secure a flight to Italy that we had to cancel.
- Date: 5/29/2020
- What did we get: two one-way tickets flying on Lufthansa, from San Francisco (SFO) to Florence (FLR)
- How did we book: via United.com
- Total paid: $44.60 + 60,000 United miles
- How we paid: 💳 Credit Card + ✈️ Miles
- How much was refunded: $44.60 + 60,000 United miles
- Loss or Profit: We got all of our money back!
- Refund date: 5/29/2020
Action taken: We had to wait a bit as United was not initially cancelling flights leaving in May of 2020 as part of their COVID19 refund policy. Once that was updated we called them and got a full refund. Easy peasy!
Recap
Flight cancelations were not as smooth as dealing with Airbnb cancelation, to say the least. We had to deal with a lot more different companies with different policies via phone, email, and their website. In the end, we were are pleased with the results as we understand it was an unprecedented time for everyone.
In total, we prepaid $4,131.57 in flights with our credit card and spent 112,000 airlines miles. We were able to get everything refunded and even manage to make a small profit out of these transactions as we ended up with $30 more than what we spent.
Our Bottom line: we got everything back plus a bit extra!
While canceling all of our plans for 2020 was a time-consuming situation, we ended up in the green of $30 (as we made $87 due to the currency conversion exchange rate being in our favor that offset a fee of $57). Definitely not enough to pay for the time spent on email or on the phone but I won’t complain as we were happy to recoup ~$7,300 USD, 60K United Points, 32K Delta Skymiles, and 20K Asia Miles for future use.
Here are two spreadsheets to sum it all:
Our accommodations:
| Location | Start Date | End Date | Purchase Price | Refund Price | Loss or Profit? |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Osaka (Japan) | 3/26/2020 | 4/2/2020 | $280 | $280 | $0 |
| Kyoto (Japan) | 4/2/2020 | 4/11/2020 | $979 | $979 | $0 |
| Tokyo (Japan) | 4/11/2020 | 4/22/2020 | $610 | $610 | $0 |
| Tokyo (Japan) | 4/11/2020 | 4/22/2020 | $539 | $539 | $0 |
| Florence (Italy) | 6/4/2020 | 7/2/2020 | $790 | $790 | $0 |
| Krakow (Poland) | 7/7/2020 | 8/4/2020 | $816 | $816 | $0 |
| Paleokastritsa (Greece) | 8/29/2020 | 9/1/2020 | $118 | $118 | $0 |
| TOTAL | $7,310 | $7,340 | $30 |
Our flights:
| Flight | Service Provider | Purchase Date | Purchase Price | Refund Price | Loss or Profit? |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| DPS – KUL (Visa Run) | Air Asia | 3/26/2020 | $133 | $133 | $0 |
| KUL – DPS (Visa Run) | CheapOair | 3/27/2020 | $62 | $62 | $0 |
| DPS – HKG (Bali to Japan) | Asia Miles | 3/26/2020 | $62 + 20K Asia miles | $63 | $0 |
| HKG – ITM (Bali to Japan) | GoToGate | 3/27/2020 | $377 | $319 | -$58 |
| TPE – SFO (Leaving Taiwan) | United Airlines | 3/19/2020 | $1,144 | $1,144 | $0 |
| CDG – ITM (Parents to Japan) | Air France | 4/1/2020 | $1,245 | $1,328 | $83 |
| HND – SFO (Japan to California) | Delta Airlines | 4/22/2020 | $111 + 32K Delta miles | $115 | $5 |
| SFO – FLR (California to Europe) | United Airlines | 6/3/2020 | $45 + 60K Unites miles | $45 | $0 |
| TOTAL | $7,310 | $7,340 | $30 |
Lessons learned
We learned a few lessons from going through this when it comes to handling cancellations that are worth sharing:
- 1 – Don’t panic! Things happen and safety should be priority number one. Then you can take care of handling cancellations.
- 2 – Time Zone is your friend when you need to call a customer support line. Luckily for us, we are currently in Taiwan (13-16 hours ahead of the USA) so we can call during low call volume hours.
- 3 – Keep track of every booking and save every email you receive when making any reservation until that event has been completed. We personally use TripIt.com to stay organized. (We simply forward them every booking confirmation and they put our end to end itinerary together for us. Big time saver!).
- 4 – As much as possible, directly deal with the source of your booking. For airlines, this means booking directly on the airline company website and avoiding third parties as some might take unnecessary fees from you to justify their services.
- 5 – It’s okay to close a credit card even if you are still waiting for a refund to be credited. We love travel hacking and had to close the credit card we used to make some of these bookings. Luckily this doesn’t prevent any company from sending you money to the credit card account you used to make the purchase. You might need however to call the credit card company to issue you a refund (usually a paper check you have to deposit, though Chase did manage to wire money directly to our bank account)
- 6 – Read the cancelation policies carefully. These aren’t the most exciting documents to read, but when trying to choose between two service providers, it might be worth paying a bit more to choose the one with a better refund policy in case something unexpected happens.
We won’t be using these company likely in the future
- AirAsia.com for having us escalate to management to request a refund for a flight that was already cancelled by the airline
- GoToGate.com for their 300 MYR handling fee
And we will happily keep using the following instead:
- Airbnb for always providing us with top-notch support
- American Express for excelling in dispute management
- Delta Airlines, United Airlines for offering great discounts (thanks to miles) and great customer service
Alright, this is it about our dealing with 2020 cancellations. What about you? Were you able to get your money back and if so what strategy did you have to use? Feel free to share any clever tips that others might be able to use in the future!
Useful resources:
14 Comments
Megladon · January 31, 2021 at 7:08 pm
Great update on the refunds and your experiences with the processes. In fact it reminded me to see what the status of my own were!
I too am having trouble with Air Asia refund for a flight that was cancelled. Hopefully something turns up soon! But that limbo status and long wait queues used up many weeks of time.
We just recently had luck with Expedia. Purchased a flight for Denpasar-Auckland for March 28, 2020. Turns out the flight never flew and only a credit could be issued back in April 2020 due to third party purchase.
Today, with a phone call to Expedia, it is being processed as a refund.
Glad you guys are doing well in Taiwan. You have got me thinking of visiting there someday!
Keep on living the dream!
Megan
Mr. Nomad Numbers · February 4, 2021 at 12:47 pm
Hi Megladon. Thanks for your comment. For Air Asia, we had to escalate our refund to management as the person we talked to on the phone follow their run book and could not authorize any credit for our flight (that was canceled due to covid19) and could only provide us with points if we were okay to create their free reward account which did not wanted to open. Keep us posted if you get a resolution on your booking!
Erin & Marc · February 1, 2021 at 3:34 pm
This feels very familiar to us! What a crazy time…thank goodness for flexible cancellation policies!
Mr. Nomad Numbers · February 4, 2021 at 12:44 pm
Thanks for your comment Erin & Marc. Were you guys also as lucky as us when it came to claiming your money back from your pre-covid-19 bookings?
Erin & Marc · February 4, 2021 at 3:46 pm
Yes – luckily all of the AirBnBs were refunded fully, and our travel insurance paid for our emergency flights back to the states from Indonesia last March. Big relief as, like you two, we had thousands of dollars in travel and flights already booked.
Mr. Nomad Numbers · February 5, 2021 at 1:01 pm
Glad to hear!
Dragon Guy · February 2, 2021 at 11:26 pm
I can’t believe Air Asia still hasn’t paid you back! That’s terrible! Good to know to avoid them when we are back in Asia. Do you think you will have use for the Asia Miles points? Were they transferred from a credit card? That’s one of the things I didn’t think about with all the miles that had to be returned; they don’t go back to the credit card partner if they are from transferrable points.
We got all of the money back from our cancelled travels. We had a miles trip on United to Europe that we easily got refunded. We also had an intra-Europe EasyJet flight that got refunded. Thanks to FX changes we netted a whole 21 cents from the transaction 🙂 And we had about $2,000 of Airbnb refunded to us for trips to Europe and Asia. Most was a refund to the gift cards we had used and a portion came back as a credit. We were fortunately able to use that credit pretty quickly on a US road trip. We also had some hotels that we booked where we didn’t have to prepay, so we weren’t hit with any fees there.
I actually booked a few stays in Europe via booking.com. Interestingly some of the same places listed on Airbnb were also on booking.com. The prices were generally the same (within a few $$) and booking.com didn’t require any prepayment. However, I don’t know if you can negotiate with the homeowner the same way you do via Airbnb. Something to think about on a future short trip.
Mr. Nomad Numbers · February 4, 2021 at 12:58 pm
Hi guys! It’s always great to hear from you and congrats on launching your Youtube channel!
Re: Air Asia. Yes, this is very frustrating especially as they haven’t gotten back to us in the two follow-up emails we sent them! I might have to call them again. As for the Asia Miles points, I’m hoping they will either extend their point expiration date (if the situation doesn’t permit most people to travel safely). It is definitely a bummer that we can’t send them back to our credit cards, but if we could travel safely in the Asia region they aren’t too hard to use.
Glad to hear that you guys make also a small profit out of your cancellation.
Hao · February 4, 2021 at 9:07 pm
I appreciate you tremendously for writing this post because you teach me to handle travel cancelation. You teach me to resolve problems and avoid future problems. I would be in total distress trying to recoup $7,300. Historically, I found airline customer service to be slow and unhelpful on the phone. I had to wait for 30-60 minutes to talk to someone. When I got someone, the person often could not resolve my issues.
Regarding trip cancellation in 2020, I had to cancel a conference and 5 short-term stays: 3 Airbnb bookings, 1 booking.com booking, and a direct booking with a boutique vacation rental. The 5 accommodations had moderate cancellation policy; I canceled in April for the July driving trip. I got money back from all venues. Luckily, I did not have to cancel any flights. Although the total amount to recoup was about 2,000, it was still stressful and time consuming.
Therefore, I appreciate your explanation, facts, and analysis. If you two had travel insurance, would the travel insurance company pay for your canceled flights? Would the travel insurance company write you one check of $4,131.57? If you do not have travel insurance, would you consider buying it to mitigate future travel cancelations? I have never bought travel insurance yet, and wondering…
As always, thank you for writing.
Mr. Nomad Numbers · February 5, 2021 at 1:01 pm
Hi Hao. Glad to hear that our content is helpful to you! A lot of customer services are indeed very slow unfortunately which is actually a good way to dissuade customers to forget about potential refunds they might be entitled to. As we said, it’s better to try to call them outside of peak hours as they wait time is much shorter. I’m glad to hear you manage to also get your money back!
As for traveling insurance, we don’t have any as we prefer having expat health insurance instead (read: https://www.nomadnumbers.com/why-long-term-travel-is-the-best-health-insurance-plan-you-can-get/). These are two different insurance, but we would rather pay to protect our lives than our stuff which aren’t that expensive anyway. And in general, our credit card would have some travel insurance benefit embedded into them so we could use them to get similar benefits.
Hao · February 5, 2021 at 5:41 pm
Thank you much for your response.
Our Freedom Years · February 7, 2021 at 9:24 am
Wow that must have been incredibly time consuming to chase down all those refunds… but that’s amazing you managed to break (more than) even!
In Feb 2020 we only had two two months of travel planned ahead but still had some headaches trying to get our refunds. Like you we had a pretty seamless experience with Airbnb. Trains and flights took more work and we still have a refund from Alitalia pending for our “pet in cabin” fees for a flight which they cancelled… they refunded our tickets but not those of our dogs!
Ultimately we feel very grateful for the refunds we got and that we have been able to continue our slow travels this year. Lots of good learning about keeping our plans flexible and making bookings that can be cancelled!
Mr. Nomad Numbers · February 8, 2021 at 2:18 pm
Thanks! Yes it is a good thing to feel grateful that we can get all of these refunds, especially when some company have been suffering a lot due to the pandemic. It looks like you guys are still able to navigate the various lockdown and border updates arround Europe. Well done on that. We should catch up again!
Our Freedom Years · February 9, 2021 at 8:04 am
Yes – let’s catch up soon for sure!